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GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
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Author:  maple&walnut [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Hello,

I have a question about books & videos. During past two years I finaly bought several hand tools and woods ect. for start making guitars. I am planing to make small jumbo fingerstyle guitar 1st and after that mybe also classical or not, but for the start I bought Cumpiano & Somogyi books & both are great. I decided that I will buy one more book or mybe online course videos from the next options: Gore/Gillet books or Romanillos new book or Robert O'Brien video lessons. What I would like to know is, which of these 3 will show me more of the tips, photos, techniques ect. of using HAND tools Approach? I am pretty sure, I will not use any power tools at least for 1st several guitars, since I won't be able to afford them. Also I want to be able to make guitar with only hand tools 1st and mybe in future add routers ect. I am leaning toward Romanillos book, since I think that Trevor Gore book or Robert O'Brien videos are more power tools approach. Am I wrong? Anyone out there have the all & can comment. Or if you can additionaly point me to some great YouTube videos where Hand Tools are used moustly. Thank you for advice. Chears
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Cumpiano's book is a good one for hand tool users. If you haven't built a guitar yet I would suggest you use that book and build one before investing in too many others. Many of O'Brien's videos are free and will also give you good tips on guitar building. Romanillos also has some free videos as well as many others. But don't confuse yourself with too much information. You will learn more by building your first guitar than you will by reading about building guitars.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Cumpiano book is the best I know of for hand tool centric approach.

The only power tools I regularly use are my hide glue pot, electric bending iron (charcoal starter in a pipe), and Dremel with StewMac router base (for inlays and saddle slots). The truss rod slot on steel strings would be a big problem without either some kind of router, or something like the Veritas plow plane (which is what I use, and love it).

For classicals, drilling the holes for the tuners would be very difficult without a drill press and spacing jig. Lucky for me, I prefer the 4:1 ratio of Pegheds planetary gear tuners anyway, and the hole spacing and angle isn't a big deal for those (though they do need an expensive violin reamer to taper the hole).

Just get to work and ask here if you run into trouble :)
Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
A collection of Veritas hand tool will cost more than a few power tools. I'd say have a small router at least. A good router plane and a small power router costs exactly the same.

Hand planing plates work, depending on the wood. For tops it's not too bad but for some back wood it could be very difficult without some special technique. Holding the thin wood down is also a problem too.
Author:  maple&walnut [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Thanks a lot for all the comments!

DennisK wrote:
The truss rod slot on steel strings would be a big problem without either some kind of router, or something like the Veritas plow plane (which is what I use, and love it).


I can use my fathers heavy duty Makita router for that I gues, until I can buy smaller one.

Tai Fu wrote:
A collection of Veritas hand tool will cost more than a few power tools.


Its true, but I already bought them, so thats why I want to use what I have. Of course I Will use electric bending iron - what I mean by power tools are the big mashines (sanders ect.).

DennisK wrote:
Hand planing plates work, depending on the wood. For tops it's not too bad but for some back wood it could be very difficult without some special technique. Holding the thin wood down is also a problem too.


The same goes here - I bought 3 hand planes + I own one more from past, so thats what I can use. I can't buy thickness sander and dust extraction system.

I would still like to get some answer on my original question - which of below mentioned 3 options will show me more tips, photos, techniques ect. of using HAND tools Approach? : Gore/Gillet books or Romanillos new book or Robert O'Brien video lessons (his online lessons, not the free ones)???
Or some other YouTube videos, if you think they show proper use of the hand tools.

About danger of confusion: I understand that too much information can do that, but I think it can also help you with decision which way to choose. I want to follow moustly the Somogyi suggestions about bracing, neck attachment and probably most other topics, but I just miss much more Infos about using Hand tools and that is the main reason why I will buy one of the above mentioned book or videos. I gues the bonus of Gore/Gillet books is also the attached plan of X braced guitar + much more.

Thanks for help! Wish you a nice weekend! Chears
Author:  senunkan [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
I have all three and here is my take on them.

For Romanillos book, it's more of a collection item.
The book shows his method of doing things rather than being instructional.
So you might have to infer from it.
Some of the hand tools pictures are quite interesting e.g. the binding scraper etc

For the Gore / Gillet book, there are 2 volumes.
The volume on the build is really more on power tools based.
But He does show you how to plane difficult woods though - cross grain planing.
The volume on analysis alone is well worth the money.

For Robbie's online video, I think it's the most comprehensive instructional material available.
Not only does he cover method by machine / power tools, he usually show you the alternate way of using hand tools to achieve the same result.
His free video shows a glimpse of what you are going to get but in much more detail.
And he is very humorous in his instruction which makes the process very enjoyable.
You have the option of just purchase the individual modules separately.

If you can get all three if not get Robbie's video, Gore's book, Romanillos' book in this order.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
i think Sen nailed it.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Trevor Gore actually prefers to use Handplanes for thicknessing. I don't think he owns a thickness sander.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Though I wonder how do you hand plane hard wood such as african blackwood or purpleheart? Those wood are like stone and the blade lasts like 2 minutes of use before it becomes dull...
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
The only power tool that I own is a Bandsaw and to be honest I've virtually stopped using that. If you go back 40 or 50 years ago then most Luthiers wouldn't own much in the way of power tools, if any. Comparatively they were very expensive. Go back before the war and it would be extremely unlikely for a luthier (even a small workshop) to own any power tools. Yet stringed instruments have been made for 500 years or so, sometimes in small workshops producing fairly healthy outputs. It's possible for a one man band to produce up to 20 instruments per year without using any power tools, although you would be buying in sawn veneers.
The 'trick' to getting fast with handplanes is to have a number of them, each set up to perform a specific task. It's pointless starting with a smoother if you want to go from a 5 mm Back to finished 2.5 mm's. Your first Plane (in this example) should be what I term a 'gentle scrub' Plane, a Plane with a heavily cambered blade set to take a relatively heavy shaving. Some would call it a Jack Plane. There's not much finesse about it, it's used soley to remove the bulk. You then switch to a finer set Plane and finally to a smoothing plane. 3 Planes is what I use for Backs/Sides. Soundboards are easily accomplished with 1 or 2. Absolutely no need for the more expensive Clifton/LN/Veritas Planes. All of this can be accomplished with Planes that can be had for a few dollars each.
Author:  cphanna [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
I'm probably pretty typical insofar as I use a mix of hand and power tools. I'm continually learning to use all of my tools more proficiently. May I make a recommendation beyond those that you've requested? Read and watch everything you can find about sharpening hand tools. I know this seems basic but I'm not patronizing you. Reading, studying, watching and experimenting with all the various sharpening methods has helped me tremendously. Then, reach for the tool or the switch that best suits your method for a given job. Best of luck.
I hope you continue to enjoy this hobby as much as I do. Show us your guitar when it's finished!
Patrick
Author:  RusRob [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
maple&walnut wrote:
I would still like to get some answer on my original question - which of below mentioned 3 options will show me more tips, photos, techniques ect. of using HAND tools Approach? : Gore/Gillet books or Romanillos new book or Robert O'Brien video lessons (his online lessons, not the free ones)???
Or some other YouTube videos, if you think they show proper use of the hand tools.


Cumpiano is probably the method you want to use. His book covers mostly hand tools and methods. (be warned that there are a lot of updates to his book and some of his methods are very different than explained in the book. So if you use it make sure you go to his web page and find the updates.

But as someone else said above, Don't confuse yourself by trying to follow multiple methods. Start with one and use that method from start to finish. After you have at least completed one you will have a much better idea of what will work best for you.

I only have one guitar under my belt and it was done following Robert O'Brien's DVD. Now that it is finished I have decided to try my next one using Cumpiano's book and method. There are a few reasons why but the main ones being I don't have to build a mold since he uses a workboard. The other being his method of setting the angle of the neck is much more straightforward and precise. And the fact he builds using few if any power tools.

But we are all different in our approach to everything and you have to find what works best for you.

Cheers,
Bob
Author:  Michaeldc [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Cumpiano's book is what I recommend for a first build. His process is easy to follow, and you won't need to spend a ton of dough on fancy tools to learn whether you actually enjoy the process of guitar building. I built my first 3 instruments based on his book. I personally use a lot of power tools in my process. I like to think there's room for all of us, no matter our preferred method.

Cheers, M
Author:  windsurfer [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Tai Fu wrote:
A collection of Veritas hand tool will cost more than a few power tools. I'd say have a small router at least. A good router plane and a small power router costs exactly the same.

.


And the router plane will be far more pleasurable to use...

-jd
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Jeff Highland wrote:
Trevor Gore actually prefers to use Handplanes for thicknessing. I don't think he owns a thickness sander.

Very true!

Under essential "stationary" tools in the Build book I list a 14" bandsaw, a pillar drill and a bench grinder. Under essential hand tools I list a battery powered drill and 1/4" router. That's it! When I started, I used one small router for all routing tasks and mounted it in a shop made table (shown in the book) when required.

Perhaps the 1/4" router is the only thing I wouldn't like to be without for building guitars (cutting binding ledges, saddle slots in bridges, etc), but building the tooling (side benders, body moulds etc.) is a lot easier with the bandsaw and drills. The bench grinder is used for putting primary bevels on edge tools. Yes, of course you can do without, but it provides a massive time saving for the cost involved. If you intend to use edge tools primarily, it is essential to keep them sharp, and regrinding a primary bevel by hand is time consuming. The books shows ways of doing things both in a fully equipped guitar workshop and in a home workshop.

Cumpiano (for example) shows use of a bandsaw, tablesaw (absolutely not required for guitar making) routers, pillar drill, belt sander (also not required; I don't have one) but no mention of a bench grinder (that I could find), so, in fact, more stationary tools than I use. He makes use of a hand drill, likely because battery powered tools weren't readily available when the book was written (1987).

So, whilst the approach I take could be called jig intensive (which is arguable!) it's not power tool intensive.

Regarding planes, the key to getting them to work properly is in setting them up correctly for what you're doing and keeping them sharp. One part of the set-up is getting/keeping the sole flat. The only planes I've never had to flatten are Lie-Neilsen and Veritas. They start flat and stay flat (at least mine have). That is the benefit of "expensive" planes (and they're often nicer to use, too). All the other makes I own I've had to flatten, usually more than once.
senunkan wrote:
The volume on analysis alone is well worth the money.

The Design book stands alone of its type.
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
I'm a book person. I've seen several videos on guitar-making topics and invariably find them disappointing. Their value is almost totally exhausted after one viewing and retrieving information in the future is annoyingly difficult. (The exception would be Robbie O'Brien's Youtube series -- short, crisp videos on well-defined topics.) My books on the other hand are annotated with my own experience and specs and I go back to them repeatedly. I own most of the books mentioned in this thread, and while I got something out of every one, the Gore/Gilet pair are the only ones I now consider indispensable.

For a new builder, I think Cumpiano (and his website amendments) is ideal. Enough detail to walk you through a completed guitar, with appropriate line drawings and photos to illustrate every step. If you are not shy to use a Spanish heel for steel-string guitars (as I do), then the books by Alex Willis and Jim Williams are both inexpensive, well organized and very well illustrated to walk you through your first guitars with no exceptional power tools or fixtures. Both have plans.

As Trevor said, most guitar makers will want a bandsaw and (at least) one router; other machines (even a drill press) are quite optional in my view. The only other machine I had to start was a table saw, and that's only because I've had one throughout my woodworking life and am very familiar with it.

Lots of folks continue to use hand planes for dimensioning plates -- and those pretty, fragrant shavings are extremely satisfying. Some woods are nicer than others under the plane, but there is technique that will handle all of them. The only reason I now have a thickness sander is my right shoulder is so arthritic (quite literally falling apart), that planing even for very short periods is extremely painful. Unfortunately, the thickness sander is slow and very noisy, so not that enjoyable.

I've often explained to folks that, as a fairly experienced wood worker to start and a sworn book-person, I would probably have built a guitar from a book, but I don't know that I would have built a second. I was fortunate to take a 3-week course with a group of 14 and an instructor who had his teaching format down pat (David Freeman). It was definitely hand-tool centric and spent time with short lectures that discussed theory and optional methods. I learned a lot from that first guitar -- and at least as much from those of my fellow students. I took copious notes -- and that notebook remains the only reference book that lives in my shop. Like all of my books, it has many annotations made after the course and I've often thought I should take the time to transcribe it to be a little more clear to others.

So, I would echo the sentiments of others -- get building! And if you possibly can, find a structured course with a recognized teacher (a good luthier is not necessarily a good teacher) -- generally better value at the start than additional $$$ spent on books. Additional books will be much more effective in expanding your approaches and developing your ideas after you've got one or two under your belt. And at that point I'd recommend the Gore/Gilet pair.
Author:  Joe Sallis [ Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Years ago my friend and I make bagpipes. We didn't have any money at all. All the materials came from skips (furniture for wood, old sofas for leather, plastic cartons for the reeds) the only tools we had were a hand turned drill and knives. My friend did away with the knives and only used a pair of scissors. His pipes were a lot better than mine.
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
senunkan wrote:

For Robbie's online video, I think it's the most comprehensive instructional material available.
Not only does he cover method by machine / power tools, he usually show you the alternate way of using hand tools to achieve the same result.
His free video shows a glimpse of what you are going to get but in much more detail.
And he is very humorous in his instruction which makes the process very enjoyable.
You have the option of just purchase the individual modules separately.

If you can get all three if not get Robbie's video, Gore's book, Romanillos' book in this order.



Thank you so much for the kind compliment. Happy Building!
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
Cumpiano's book is like $15 and goes into extensive detail working with hand tools, detailed pictures of tasks and jigs etc. even if you buy another, you should certainly own the Cumpiano book. I probably reference that more than the Somagyi book because there is just so much information.
Author:  Rienk [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GORE vs ROMANILLOS vs O'BRIEN - HAND TOOLS APPROACH?
mqbernardo wrote:
i think Sen nailed it.


I agree.
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